No quiero establecer diferencias entre los comentarios de los lectores de mi blog y los de Reddit, pero la verdad es que me descojoné leyendo algunos de los 155 comentarios que aparecieron cuando mi artículo sobre el abandono de la religion en España por la mayoría de la gente se publicó en este medio.

Lo que yo trataba de argumentar es que no hace falta ser religioso para ser ético y que no hace falta prohibir cosas para que la mayoría de la gente no las haga. Que en España reina la tolerancia y que así estamos mejor.

Pero los comentarios me tildan de todo tipo de cosas. Vale la pena leerlos porque es una manera de entrar en la cultura anglosajona, en ver como nos ven. Esto sigue uno de los objetivos de mis blogs, presentar a USA con una cara simpática a los que leen en castellano y a España para los que leen en inglés.

degustibus 0 points 19 hours ago

So this link to a news article documenting the decline of Spain’s population is worth no points or discussion to Redditors, but klight’s ranting with obscenity and gross generalizations merits four points.
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bushwakko 3 points 18 hours ago

well, your description of the article seemed interesting enough (as a story about how decline in births can lead to a poorer country in many ways).

Until, of course, you just drag that last sentence out of your ass: «because they have given up on believing that life is a blessing.»
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degustibus 0 points 18 hours ago

The person who submitted this article said that nothing much has happened to Spain since abandoning religion and the article suggests this has been a uniformly beneficial develeopment for Spain. I’m pointing out that since Spaniards have turned their backs on the Church they have also lived as if material wealth and personal pleasures are more valuable than having a good sized family. The birth rate for Spaniards (not recent immigrants) is at just over 1 child per family. This deprives children of siblings. It deprives future generations the chance to live in a vibrant, thriving society. Spain is dying. If you don’t think that has anything to do with abandoning faith then so be it, but the link is clear to those who have studied it. Why do you think Spaniards no longer have kids?
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bushwakko 2 points 18 hours ago

You can make the link to having kids, believing life is a blessing and having faith all day. It’s not going to give it merit.
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degustibus 1 point 18 hours ago

The link is much clearer that that, as documented in this article in the New York Times. You’d have to be crazy to say that abandoning the Church had nothing to do with people wanting to have sex without the results. When people decide to delay starting families and then to artificially limit their offspring to one child, all in opposition to Church teaching, it’s not a meritless link. The article implies a link between giving up the Church and not penalizing p2p networks, but you have a problem with a link between giving up religion and giving up on having more than one or two children-read this and then pause to think for a bit.
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lysine23 1 point 11 hours ago

What’s the big deal? So the population declines to where it was in 1950, or 1930, or whatever. Is that so horrible? In the meantime, the liberals are failing to reproduce themselves, while the Opus Dei types are cranking out the next generation. You should be happy.
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wepack -11 points 1 day ago [comment score below threshold] show comment

Spain is still 94% Catholic. Bogus survey or not. Does anyone on reddit fact check? This place is full of lies, urban myths and legends, half-truths and just flat out made up stuff.
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frbiwaftt 35 points 1 day ago

fine, if you want well-sourced facts, check here:

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

In sum, countries marked by high rates of organic atheism are among the most societally healthy on earth, while societies characterized by non-existent rates of organic atheism are among the most destitute. Nations marked by high degrees of organic atheism tend to have among the lowest homicide rates, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, and illiteracy rates, and among the highest levels of wealth, life expectancy, educational attainment, and gender equality in the world. The only indicator of societal health mentioned above in which religious countries fared better than irreligious countries was suicide.
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wepack 2 points 20 hours ago

You’re confusing coincidence with causation.
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decaff 4 points 20 hours ago

You are right, in that there may well be a common factor that gives rise to both those improvements in society and a reduced level of religious belief. This is probably an increased standard of education.
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frbiwaftt 1 point 10 hours ago

The statistical correlation is much too strong to be coincidence.

The interesting question is what exactly is cause, and what consequence. Does religion cause societies to be less healthy: or do unhealthy societies cause an increase in religion? Or does a third factor cause both?

I made no claim either way, so you are confusing fact with fiction.
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frbiwaftt 1 point 10 hours ago*

The statistical correlation is much too strong to be coincidence.

The interesting question is what exactly is cause, and what consequence. Does religion cause societies to be less healthy: or do unhealthy societies cause an increase in religion? Does it work both ways? Or does a third factor cause both?

I made no claim either way, so you are confusing fact with fiction.
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hexmode 1 point 1 day ago

Do you conclude that atheism increases societal health?
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cweaver 16 points 1 day ago

More than likely a good education system increases both societal health AND atheism.
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hexmode 2 points 20 hours ago

I would assume that increased wealth leads to a decreased perceived need for «god» just as it increases the overall health of a society.

I doubt education has much to do with it, but then, I’m not very fond of education as a cure-all.
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punkgeek 3 points 19 hours ago

I would assume that increased wealth leads to a decreased perceived need for «god» just as it increases the overall health of a society.

Sadly, wealth in the US hasn’t done much to decrease irrational beliefs. Perhaps it is the European educational systems which has achieved this progress.
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lkozma 12 points 1 day ago

Even suicide is a tricky thing to measure, because in religious countries many cases of suicide are not reported and counted as such, due to the social stigma attached to it, therefore, in religious countries the suicide rates might seem much lower then they really are.
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dneuman 7 points 1 day ago

Good comment, frbiwaftt.
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mjk1093 -4 points 1 day ago

What’s organic atheism? Atheism grown without chemical fertilizers?
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entropyfails 21 points 1 day ago

You could have tried reading the article, you know.

Of course, we must always distinguish between those nations where non-belief has been forced upon the society by dictators (“coercive atheism”) from those societies wherein non-belief has emerged on its own without governmental coercion (“organic atheism”).

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mjk1093 -4 points 1 day ago

Read articles? No, making snide remarks is more fun.
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paganel -2 points 1 day ago*

Nations marked by high degrees of organic atheism tend to have among the lowest homicide rates, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, and illiteracy rates, and among the highest levels of wealth, life expectancy, educational attainment, and gender equality in the world. The only indicator of societal health mentioned above in which religious countries fared better than irreligious countries was suicide.

In other words, atheism makes you live a longer and duller life, with constant thoughts of suicide.
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Gorbama 5 points 22 hours ago

Legalized prostitution, drugs and gambling is duller ? Where the hell are you living??
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derefr -1 points 22 hours ago

Correlation is not et cetera.

If you think critically about death over long periods of time while leading a long and depressing life, you’re bound to give up any notion that there is a God or Gods looking out for you.
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richardkulisz -1 points 21 hours ago

The authors of this paper clearly have never heard of data reporting. They could have reported their data infinitely more clearly using a few graphs. And then proceeded to analyze their sources for bias.
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cornucopia 17 points 1 day ago

So is Mexico, where I live, maybe more like 99%. So, If you ask a statistician, I «must» be catholic. The truth is than almost no one here cares. I know only a few people that still go to church regularly, the rest of us, were born into a catholic family that did not police our spirituality. And our children are probably going to care even less. I know spain is the same so is the whole of latin-america. So if you want facts over social reality help yourself. The truth is that atheism is mostly important in the USA and other places where there is fundamentalism, for the rest of the world, is not a matter of public debate (altough it is fun at parties)we just tolerate and respect what other people want to believe.
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tomel 1 point 4 hours ago*

I find the notion of Spain not being a catholic country slightly strange too — although AFAIK they have quite a secular tradition. I assume it always depends on your point of view and how religious the person speaking is. Somebody from latin america, US mid west, Poland etc. might have different levels of calling a country catholic/religion dominated than, say, somebody from France maybe.
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dneuman 15 points 1 day ago

I think a person would likely still consider themselves Catholic even if they no longer go to church or adhere to the edicts of the Pope. If they still believe in God, then they would probably consider themselves to belong to their parent’s religion. As the article noted, they are Catholic by tradition only. I have many friends in Canada for whom this is true.
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froggy000 10 points 1 day ago

«If anything, Spain proves that societies do not fall apart when they give up religion and almost everything that was illegal becomes legal.»

Their fertility rate is 1.1 and close to 100,000 pregnencies were terminated last year, increasing every year since 1985. Societal collapse will take a few generations.

By the way, I’m irreligious and pro choice. I just don’t think Spain is a particularly good model to hold up.
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lysine23 10 points 1 day ago

Society won’t collapse, it’ll just change. The people with the highest birth rates (probably Muslims and whatever real Catholics are left) will inherit the future by default.

At any rate, things are going to have to change, one way or another, because what’s going on there isn’t sustainable. You’re right – it isn’t a particularly good model.
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richardkulisz 4 points 21 hours ago

The people with the highest birth rates (probably Muslims and whatever real Catholics are left) will inherit the future by default.

Sheer nonsense. And it assumes that atheists aren’t able to convert religious people faster than they can breed. Something that’s been proven patently false in Western Europe.

In any case, France has a higher than replacement rate again. All that was needed was the proper economic (governmental) support for parents. Oh wait, that smacks of socialism.
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lysine23 1 point 14 hours ago

Sheer nonsense. And it assumes that atheists aren’t able to convert religious people faster than they can breed. Something that’s been proven patently false in Western Europe.

Yeah, for one or two generations, and for Christians only, not Muslims. That doesn’t prove much. Religious people are learning to send their kids to religious schools, where they’ll never be exposed to atheists who will convert them, and there may be a genetic component to a tendency towards atheism. It’s been found that kids with a fearful temperament, which is innate and probably genetic, tend to grow up to be conservatives.

The Amish used to convert to regular churches and become normal people in droves, but now they don’t, basically for the two reasons listed above (also because America is a pit these days). Probably the same thing will happen with religious Christians and Muslims.

Remember that the events that have «proven» that secularism is sustainable have only been going on for a few generations. Europe hasn’t been ruled by clerics for a long time, and there’s been a small intellectual elite and bohemian subculture that has been secular for a long time (both of which get more attention than the masses from us now, because they’re more interesting and they wrote all of the books), but the great majority of Europeans were religious until recently.

In any case, France has a higher than replacement rate again. All that was needed was the proper economic (governmental) support for parents. Oh wait, that smacks of socialism.

That by itself proves nothing. What matters is what segments of the population are reproducing. IIRC, there was an article by Phillip Longman that said French breeders tend to be religious, but it’s no longer available for free online.
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richardkulisz 1 point 14 hours ago*

It’s been found that kids with a fearful temperament, which is innate and probably genetic, tend to grow up to be conservatives.

Yes, but it’s also been found to be epigenetic (following Lamarckian not Darwinian evolution) and is probably affected by the womb environment as well. Cortisol, it does a body bad!

Yeah, for one or two generations, and for Christians only, not Muslims.

Never had much contact with them, never had to convert them, never tried before. I admit that Muslims are a little harder to crack. Ultimately, they are just as crackable.

The key to making a population secular is to get to the kids. You make sure they aren’t abused, that their parents use the very best parenting, and within a couple generations poof, no more religion.

The Amish used to convert to regular church

The Amish are a really good example. They ensure their kids get raped. Well, their daughters anyways. All that’s needed to wipe them out is an American judiciary that believes in universal human rights. Which admittedly isn’t going to happen any time soon.

What matters is what segments of the population are reproducing. IIRC, there was an article by Phillip Longman that said French breeders tend to be religious, but it’s no longer available for free online.

Phillip Longman is an anti-French scummy dickhead. ALL segments of the French population are reproducing. And France has a higher fertility rate than Iran (1.8), Turkey (1.92), Algeria (1.89), and Tunisia (1.74). At least two of them countries it gets a lot of muslim immigrants from.

How do you explain that France has a higher fertility rate than the muslim countries its fast-breeding muslim subpopulation supposedly come from? Does France just miraculously get the champions?!
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lysine23 1 point 13 hours ago

Yes, but it’s also been found to be epigenetic (following Lamarckian not Darwinian evolution) and is probably affected by the womb environment as well. Cortisol, it does a body bad!

Either way, it probably runs in families. There’s no gene for speaking Russian, but if your parents did, you probably do, and if they didn’t you probably don’t.

The key to making a population secular is to get to the kids. You make sure they aren’t abused, that their parents use the very best parenting, and within a couple generations poof, no more religion.

Suppose that’s true. It’s not going to happen in the West. It’s too coercive, too totalitarian. Freedom of religion is a deeply ingrained idea in the West, and the Bible says «spare the rod and spoil the child.» Besides, what would you do with all of these kids? You’ve have to take millions of them away from their parents.

The Amish are a really good example. They ensure their kids get raped. Well, their daughters anyways.

I didn’t say that Amishness was a good thing, just that they succeed in transmitting their religion to their (usually 8 or so) kids.

All that’s needed to wipe them out is an American judiciary that believes in universal human rights. Which admittedly isn’t going to happen any time soon.

That’s the key – it’s not going to happen for a long time, if ever.

Phillip Longman is an anti-French scummy dickhead. ALL segments of the French population are reproducing.

If you have a citation, I’d like to see it.

How do you explain that France has a higher fertility rate than the muslim countries its fast-breeding muslim subpopulation supposedly come from? Does France just miraculously get the champions?!

I don’t know enough about Middle Eastern society to comment intelligently about it. Having said that, I would not equate Middle Easterners with religious fanatics, and the people there would have a harder time affording children than European Muslims (especially with that French pro-natal policy).

The fact of the matter is that Muslims in Europe have higher birthrates than Muslims in the Middle East. Maybe they’ll assimilate, or at least secularize like Europeans have, maybe they won’t. I don’t know. Either way, that doesn’t change the equation: secular = infertile, infertile = selected out. That just changes which conservatives will become a majority.
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Gorbama 1 point 4 hours ago*

There’s no gene for speaking Russian, but if your parents did, you probably do, and if they didn’t you probably don’t.

Read «The Nurture Assumption». You’re implying a causation here (parents teach their kids language) that is nonexistent. The reason kids of Russian parents learn to speak Russian is not because their parents speak Russian. It’s because they probably live among Russian speaking peers. Their friends speak Russian. To prove this to yourself, find a kid who moved to a foreign country before the age of (about) 11. I’ll wager anything you like they natively speak the language of their new home rather than the language their parents speak. They will still be able to speak their parents’ tongue, but only at a relatively childish level. The language they dream in will be the new one.
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lysine23 1 point 3 hours ago

That’s not relevant to the point I’m trying to make, because parents know that peers are important, and they try to leverage it.

If your parents are fundamentalist Christians, they’ll probably send you to a Christian school and church groups where your peers will be other fundamentalist Christians. If your parents are devout Muslims, they’ll do the same, and probably live in a Muslim neighborhood, if they exist in your country. If your parents are Amish or Hasidic, they’ll dress you funny, make sure your first language is not that of your country, and try to get you to interact with the outside world as little as possible, and, in the case of the Hasidim, punish your family if you leave the faith. All of this seems to be work.

Russian immigrants, OTOH, probably just send their kids to public schools with native-born kids, where they are assimilated.
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jcderr 0 points 19 hours ago

Sheer nonsense. And it assumes that atheists aren’t able to convert religious people faster than they can breed. Something that’s been proven patently false in Western Europe.

Have a source for that assertion?

Actually, I don’t really care. I just see you’re really big on browbeating others about sourcing, so I figure you’d be able to back up similar assertions on your own part.
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richardkulisz -1 points 19 hours ago

The fact that Western Europe is secular you dumbass.
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larsga 10 points 1 day ago

Spain is definitely not a good model, but the problem with the fertility rate has little to do with religion and more to do with personal economic factors. Spanish people work crazy hours and have no time to get kids, nor can they afford it if they want to maintain the lifestyle they get used to while single.

Still, given Spain’s history in the 20th century, and to some extent the 19th, it’s hardly surprising that it struggles a bit.
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jjames57 -6 points 1 day ago [comment score below threshold] show comment

You may think that spain and italy are havens. Just wait for 10 years and the new majority «muslim’s» start consolidating power. You will have religion one way or another. You chose to boot out tolerant Christianity. The void will be filled by an intolerant muslim society. You had better take in the nude beaches and open gambling while you still have a chance.
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masklinn 20 points 1 day ago

So FUD is very yes for you?

You chose to boot out tolerant Christianity.

No one «booted» anyone out god damn it, just read TFA, people just aren’t religious period there has at no point been an organized program to kill off religion

Just wait for 10 years and the new majority «muslim’s» start consolidating power. The void will be filled by an intolerant muslim society.

Spoken like a true intolerant right-wing christian bigot, well done sir.
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isalpha 8 points 23 hours ago

I’m not sure that Christianity is very tolerant, and I don’t think anyone’s «booted» it out, but I am worried that intolerant Muslims are becoming more powerful here in Europe. You probably added the thing about the nude beaches as a joke, but topless bathing has already been banned in some places in France to avoid offending Muslim sensibilities.
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dln 7 points 23 hours ago*

You chose to boot out tolerant Christianity.

How’re your gay married friends doing these days? Or muslim neighbors that you love?
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ghostal 2 points 22 hours ago*

I credit the Spanish for having behavior closely matching their belief. After increasing liberties, which ran counter to traditional church teachings, and then affirming the value of such liberties, the Spanish seemed to identify religion as a tradition rather than the source for laws. In comparison Americans enjoy the same liberties (Christians divorce, use contraceptives, have pre-maritial sex, gamble…) which usually go against religious beliefs, yet many proclaim religion should be the source of laws. Christian teaching is treated with contempt by the very people who claim to believe it most–their lives are virtually identical to non-Christians–yet they fight to keep Christianity at the center of social debate. I see very little positive change by those who employ it, and little negative by those who have discarded it. …kind of makes you wonder.
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crusoe 1 point 20 hours ago

And our founding fathers weren’t even religious by evangelical standards. Jefferson, Lincoln, Washington, all criticized christianity and religion in general. Yet somehow we’re a Christian Nation.

The more I see religious people making stupid decisions, the more I hate it.
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cartooncorpse 1 point 23 hours ago

i didn’t know that. way to go Spain!

and to the xtian pretards who prognosticate our impending doom if we don’t accept their LIES…while offering still more lies/threats/abuse as ‘evidence’….fuck you, forever.

the toxic part of society is YOU.
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derefr 3 points 22 hours ago*

Pure pedantry: If you’re going to use the Latinate abbreviation, the lower case form is χtian, not xtian. The capital form is the same, though.
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do-un-to 1 point 20 hours ago

Chi? Why is Chi used as a shortened version of Chris or Christ?
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derefr 1 point 20 hours ago

Long answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas

Short answer: Χριστος is Greek for «Christ.»
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do-un-to 1 point 19 hours ago

Cool. Thanks!

So, even «χtian» is wrong because it’s not capitalized? It’s improper not to capitalize the word, if I understand correctly.

And the capitalized version is Χtian, with a capitalized Chi, where a Roman X isn’t actually right?
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dublinclontarf 2 points 23 hours ago

This has been the situation in Spain for how many years? It all wasn’t immediate I’m sure. I’d say check back again after say… two generations/50 years to see what the effects are, it’s simply too soon to tell.
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chu 1 point 21 hours ago

Have you visited Spain lately? The economy is booming; people work hard but have a decent(ish) work-life balance; the kids are well-educated; the food and wine is excellent; it’s a powerhouse of arts, commercial design and architecture and has an excellent and cheap transport infrastructure. Not really a picture of a country crumbling at the edges.
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dublinclontarf 1 point 21 hours ago

Not saying it’s falling apart, simply that it’s too soon to tell, too soon to reach any conclusions for better or worse.
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chu 1 point 20 hours ago

I guess a person could make just about any conclusion depending on how they choose their timeframes. One thing we do know with certainty is that it is a lot better now than under Franco.
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dmehrtash 4 points 18 hours ago

I find Spain, compared to other European countries, as a quite a religious country.

In Places like France, the Cathedrals are for most part the tourist destination. In Spain though, religious festivities are very much alive.
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unknown 1 point 11 hours ago

xenophobia guide to spanish
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IgnatiusJReilly 1 point 14 hours ago

Thanks for posting this. I am intolerant of religion too.
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morphet 4 points 1 day ago

«Nothing Much»? Great things happen!
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coolfrequency 2 points 19 hours ago

I think I’ll move to spain!
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acrophobia 4 points 1 day ago

What on earth does this have to do with catholicism?

Spain is also liberal in other ways. For example, in Spain the use of P2P programs to download music for personal consumption is not a punishable offense. In Spain people openly use Limewire, eMule, Bittorrent without fear of being prosecuted.

…and atheists get candy whenever they want…and like to stroke puppy dogs…awwwww aren’t they cute.
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TheNoxx 2 points 19 hours ago

Uh… I definitely wouldn’t say Spain is a country that has «given up religion», and anyone who does is just plain ignorant. The country is still very catholic and very, very christian, however the society has simply matured.
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moreclevershark 3 points 1 day ago

What gets us into trouble is not what we don’t know. It’s what we know for sure, that just ain’t so -Mark Twain
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wepack 1 point 20 hours ago

Boy the atheists have a strong desire to have everyone think atheism is a superior set of beliefs.
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hhh333 1 point 20 hours ago

Religion in Spain is mostly becoming tradition. People marry in churches because they are beautiful and full of history, not because they actually practice.

Canada (or quebec at least) is a lot like that, most people you’ll see in churches are over 50, some routines are hard to break I guess.

But I never met anyone of my age who was really a hard believers.
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ehcolem 1 point 20 hours ago

The article shows an incredible lack of knowledge about how countries and civilizations rise and fall. But then again, so do the comments on this post. I found the article and its arguments totally unconvincing.
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hhh333 1 point 20 hours ago

Is there some kind of unofficial contest on whom congressman will say the stupidest thing ? I can’t beleive those tards are at the head of one of the most powerful nation.

Are they really the elite ? I hope not.
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martinvars 1 point 20 hours ago

I wrote the post that you are commenting. I see that many reddit commentators are talking about Spain´s low birth rates. Coincidentally, there´s an article I wrote today about this where I try to explain why is it that Spaniards and other native populations have lower birth rates than immigrants.

Why Is It That Immigrants Have So Many Children?

I also wrote a similar article in the Huffington Post, a popular American political blog.
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I wrote the post that you are commenting. I see that many reddit commentators are talking about Spain´s low birth rates. Coincidentally, there´s an article I wrote today about this where I try to explain why is it that Spaniards and other native populations have lower birth rates than immigrants. https://english.martinvarsavsky.net/new-ideas/why-is-it-that-immigrants-have-so-many-children.html I also wrote a similar article in the Huffington Post, a popular American political blog.
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Grue 0 points 23 hours ago*

Good thing they didn’t pick USSR as an example!
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oditogre 0 points 15 hours ago

When was the last time that Spain did anything that anyone cared about? Seriously…once ownership of the Americas was all settled for good and we had the whole planet fairly accurately mapped, they just stopped doing…anything. I guess they play soccer…
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brainiac -2 points 23 hours ago*

The next thing that has to go in Europe after religion is socialism. Then theyll really start making progress, even moreso than they are now. The muslims are still a problem though.
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